NFL vet & fire chief Erron Kinney shares how vulnerability, trust & courage shaped his journey from the field to leading first responders.
Erron Kinney, former NFL player turned fire chief, shares his journey navigating high-pressure environments and finding courage in vulnerability throughout his dual careers.
Erron Kinney is a former NFL tight end who played for the Tennessee Titans from 2000 to 2006. Drafted in the third round from the University of Florida, Kinney became known for his reliable hands and blocking skills. After retiring from professional football, he transitioned into public service and became a firefighter. Kinney has since risen to the role of fire chief, demonstrating leadership and a continued commitment to serving his community beyond the football field. Erron currently serves as fire chief at Norfolk MA Fire Department.
Carol Park: 0:02
Hi everyone and welcome to the Courage Unmasked podcast. I'm Carol Park, your host, and, as we have been doing, we're hearing stories of people's courage, where they walk in when there's no guarantees. There's uncertainty, risk and emotional exposure. And our guest today, Erin Kinney, definitely knows about walking into uncertainty, risk and emotional exposure. So Erron played in the NFL for seven years and then is currently a fire chief and so, after his NFL career, decided to go into to be a first responder and a firefighter. So, Erron, welcome to the podcast today.
Erron Kinney: 0:49
Thank you for having me. I'm honored to be here.
Carol Park: 0:52
Well, we are so honored to have you. So, yes, a career in the NFL and then going into firefighting first responding. Both of these definitely lots of courage, lots of vulnerability. So tell us a little bit about the similarities, the differences, because these are both like, oh, high pressure environments, right?
Erron Kinney: 1:17
Yes, both are high pressure environments but obviously you know the pressure you face in NFL is high and it's more about entertainment and scoring touchdowns, where my job now you know the public is truly depending on me for their health and well-being and their life safety. So, both high pressure environments, one, in my opinion, just has significantly higher stakes, yes, lives at stake, right?
Carol Park: 1:50
Yes, although I guess, as we've seen in the NFL especially recently, there's dangers in the NFL. That's part of the high pressure too, right.
Erron Kinney: 2:02
There is no question, there's definitely, you know. You know it used to be kind of cliche that you would hear people say you know, I'm putting my life on the line. But you know, the reality is you kind of are, because if you go into the NFL, you go into that high impact, violent collision environment and you aren't prepared and you haven't prepared your body right, you are at risk of losing your life. And that's the truth. And even when you have done all the training and done all the work and done all the preparation, there's still a chance. You know, we've seen that. You know, like you said, a couple of times in the NFL where we've had, you know, players, you know get hit just the right way or or experience a cardiac issue or or something like that, where, yeah, you, you legitimately could be putting your life on.
Carol Park: 2:55
Yeah, I mean, yeah, it's. It's one is I. I am a football fan and have sometimes struggled with the, especially. I know we're talking about DeMar Hamlin and his his just potentially life ending play. I'm so grateful that he's well, he's fine, but yes, I mean, it is the high pressure, and so in this case too, it's, like you said, the difference today, when you put your life on the line, it's also to help potentially save other people's lives as you're running into the danger and and all.
Carol Park: 3:38
So yeah, so what the transition? What? What made you decide to go from the NFL into firefighting and first responding?
Erron Kinney: 3:49
You know what it was. I don't know if it was really a transition as much as just a simple. You know, this is what I was passionate about and there has been a calling on my life to do it since I was very young. So you know, I don't. In some ways it wasn't a transition and in other ways it was, and I think you know the last question, when you talked about similarities you know, one of the big similarities that has really helped me in a lot of ways is the camaraderie in a team environment. You know the football locker room, nfl locker room and a fire department locker room. You know, from the standpoint of the team and lock in arms with your brothers and sisters beside you and, depending on you know the man or woman next to you, the camaraderie you are working towards a common goal, working towards a common goal against a common foe, if you will, or common enemy or a common opponent. You know those parallels have been very helpful for me in that transition, because that's one of the areas I feel like you know you miss. You know, because there is a significant emotional and psychological investment to be a professional football player as well, and there certainly is one to be a professional firefighter. You know, and when I say professional I don't necessarily mean that your career, because there's a lot of volunteer professional firefighters out there, but anytime you're professional, you know, in that field or in the NFL, like there is, there is a lot of camaraderie, commonality and working towards you, working towards that goal of beating your opponent. The opponents are different. Obviously, in football you're going against other people who are trying to pose their will against you and my opponent now is fire or illnesses or disease or pandemics. We're fighting on the front lines of those and you know the camaraderie and the kind of brotherhood and family has been something that's been important. It allowed me to to make it through those tough times in NFL.
Erron Kinney: 5:56
When you face adversity, you know having those, those brothers alongside me that are fighting the same fight and you know facing similar adversity or I've been through the same type of adversity. You know those relationships and those you know having those people to lock arms with that are with you, are really important to being able to survive. You know, to being able to make it through those tough times because both environments, like you said, very high stakes, very high pressure and it can be like being in a pressure cooker. You know and you need that. You need a, you need a place, or you need someone or a team around you that you can, you know you can vent to and that will support you.
Erron Kinney: 6:40
And you know, and it's sometimes they may have to hold you accountable but at the end of the day, really what it all boils down to is you need people that love you in your corner and that are willing to, you know, work with you, fight with you, hold you accountable when it's needed and, you know, also be a shoulder to cry on or a place to vent when you, when you have a rough you know a rough day or a rough call, or you know you make a mistake and it leads to a play that hurts the team. Like. You need that Because, while it is high stakes and you know, of course, we're pursuing success, you know in all of those environments there's variables you can't control.
Carol Park: 7:22
Absolutely Wow, so well put. You know, I do refer a lot to Brene Brown's work, because she did a lot of research on vulnerability, courage, and she talks about when we go into arena, where we're going to show up and be seen, where there are no guarantees, that it's super important. She calls it the seat of empathy, but these are the people who are going to be there just in the ways that you absolutely described it, because she also talks about when we go into these arenas. Shame is showing up, scarcity, the critics are showing up, I'm sure you, especially the NFL everyone's a critic, everybody's.
Carol Park: 8:05
I could coach the team. I could play better when they never even stepped on the field, you know. So it's like, yes, all of those are showing up and you have to have those people, your team, the people who love you, no matter what that are going to be there for you, because in the arenas, as we call them, where you're showing up, you're going to fail at times. We're human beings, right? So, yes, so important, and I can see in both having that team that support is just so necessary, especially when you fall down and have to get back up you know so yeah, yeah.
Carol Park: 8:48
Can you think of a specific time or incident or moment in either the NFL or in your career as a firefighter and now a fire chief where you really did have that? You know the moment of where you had to be courageous in the vulnerability. Any incidents that come stand out.
Erron Kinney: 9:52
There's a couple you know, nfl wise. You know I remember and this was a fairly profound moment for me where you know, we had had, or I had had, a rough practice and our offensive coordinator was was not happy with me. Needless to say and this was early in my career, I think, I think I was a rookie, I definitely towards, you know, I had grown in the starting lineup and I started getting a lot more playing time. And you know this particular practice, you know we were working on a specific play and, for whatever reason, I just wasn't getting it right. You know, just one of those days and my officer coordinator came in the weight room right our post-practice workout and just completely ripped me a new one. And you know it was a tough experience and I, you know, I tried to, you know you try to. In the face of that, you know, as an NFL player and being a rookie, I'm like I got to stay tough. I got to, you know, show no emotion whatsoever, I got to just be, you know, hard and tough. And you know, in that moment I tried to stay, you know, hard and tough. But what I recognized and what happened to me after that is one of the star players at this time. It was eddie george, you know, one of the best, probably one of the best running backs in the history of, you know, titans oilers. You know, uh in in just a quality person, um, and it meant a lot to me that he came up to me as a rookie and said, hey, and I believe his exact words were hey, rook, hey, hang in there, man, you're going to be one of the good ones. You know we're dependent on you and you know we're with you. We still got your back kind of thing and positive word from, arguably at that time, the best player on the team, the face of the franchise, I mean everything. And uh, I remember, you know, after that, just feeling encouraged in it. It allowed me to to maintain a level of confidence that I needed to go out and compete and do what I needed to do.
Erron Kinney: 12:24
Where, in the moment when I was getting ripped a new one and after the officer coordinator had left, you know I was, I was struggling, I really was. And um, you know I, I love the, the fact that that he knew and he saw it and even though I tried to be stoic and tough, you know, um, he knew, he knew exactly what I needed when I needed it and he said it. And you know, I think that experience, you know, for me it was something that I, you know, I still remember, but also that I remembered when I became an elder statesman, or quote unquote, one of the star players on the team and it earned my keep. I remembered that because you know you're going to have, you're going to have young players that are going to make mistakes and sometimes coaches are going to rip them a new one and they need to be, they need that encouragement, they need to know it's okay to be vulnerable or to be man that that sucked. Hey, to be vulnerable, or to be man that sucked, like you know and you know, to be able to go up to a fellow player or teammate and let them know hey, man, I've been there, you know, I've been through it, and if you need to talk about it, I'm here. If you want some help out on the field, I'm here, whatever that may be. So you know I took that, you know, that encouragement and his intervening in that in that particular instance, and I held on to it. And you know that's one instance in NFL, for sure.
Erron Kinney: 13:57
There, there, there were others.
Erron Kinney: 13:59
There were others for me, you know, as a player, where you know I made mistakes and was called out for them, and again it was my teammates and you know my wife who were, you know, our team chaplain, people that were very supportive.
Erron Kinney: 14:22
But when those times got rough, I could be, I could let my guard down right, I had a place to to kind of put that stuff, you know, and you know, along with the physicality of the game, you know, I think you know, my post-career transition that's probably one of the biggest things is I had to be more, if you will, courageous and open about being vulnerable, because one of my healthier outlets for dealing with some of that was the physicality of playing the game, you know. You know if I was frustrated or mad or pissed about something, you know well, I got to waylay somebody, you know. I got to go take out my frustration or it could be sadness, it could be anything. I could take that out. I could turn it into physical aggression and it'd be appropriate. And you know, when I retired I no longer had that outlet. You know it's not appropriate for me to go, you know, put on my helmet and shoulder pads and, you know, waylaid Joe Blow walking on the sidewalk.
Carol Park: 15:27
That might not go well.
Erron Kinney: 15:28
Yes, no it wouldn't go well. So you know that was a big thing for me. You know, post-career. You know even in those moments where I was vulnerable, you know it was within, within the locker room setting. You know you have players and friends and bonds that that you setting. You know you have players and friends and bonds that that you that become like brothers to you and that you trust and that you know you can be vulnerable with. And there's some people you can't be vulnerable with. I mean, it's a, it's a truth, but that's you know. I think it takes some wisdom to and just understanding who, who really is in your corner, who can you really trust or how much you can trust people with and when you're doing. You know I had Brad Hopkins who was like a big brother to me. He was an officer tackle that you know that helped me and that was, you know, just like a big brother example who had been there longer, who had been there. Done that. You know Eddie George pulling me aside, frank Wycheck, you know God rest his soul. Like was my mentor. You know, eddie George pulling me aside. Frank Wycheck, you know God rest his soul. Like was my mentor. You know, as a tight end. You know a guy that did it at a high level.
Erron Kinney: 16:34
I learned a lot about how to be a pro and and what it meant, and you know, you know, even even for him, you know, I think you know he was helpful for me, kind of you, mason, michael Booker these are guys that were, you know, I was able to kind of lock arms with and I could count on in my corner and that I could be vulnerable with and we could talk about things. You know, whether we were frustrated with how we were playing as a team or as how we were playing as individuals, or it could be life stuff, it could be, you know, problems at home, it could be the kids, it could. You know those were the people that that I I had in my corner during my NFL career. Um, you know that that were just instrumental in a, a, a place where I could be vulnerable, and you know, let my guard down, um, reggie Pleasant was our team chaplain, was very instrumental with that as well. Uh, being a sounding board or being a place to you know, uh, just share your feelings or or your inner thoughts or when you need to, when you, when you had a time where you need to be vulnerable and let your guard down a little bit. It was, you know, those trusted people that you have in your corner that that you know could be a shoulder to cry on. But they could also hold you accountable constructively and be like, hey man, no man, you got to make plays, you got to, you got to step up and do what you need to do. Or hey man, you're not getting it done in the in the weight room or you're not. Whatever it is, you know they, they're willing to hold you accountable too, um, and be true partners that way.
Erron Kinney: 18:30
Um, and I think you know, for me I did not realize the. That's probably the biggest transition for me from football to firefighting is that you know, after playing for I count eight. I know my career, officially seven, but I count eight because that last year I was physically unable to perform. But I that you know that locker room environment where you're that tight knit, you know that locker room environment where you're that tight knit, you know, and doing having your life kind of scheduled and regimented for you there was so much that was already planned out. You know, and you know I was rubbing shoulders with these individuals all day, every day. I probably spent more time with them than I did with my family, you know, at that point.
Erron Kinney: 19:18
So, um, I think, when you're in that scenario, whether it be in the firehouse or, you know, in the NFL, like the places I've been able to work and my jobs I've worked at in the fire department, my relationships, you know, with uh, lieutenant John Lepiccolo and and people like that who, uh, lieutenant John Lepiccolo and and people like that who, when, um, you know, uh, I had Lieutenant Hood for a long time as as my, as my commanding officer that I worked under, but having those people, those kinds of people in the firehouse, that, um, you know, josh North, good friends, that these people became like family, that Brentwood Fire family, that was where I worked, having those people, where you build those kind of relationships and and also just actually not kind of he flat out, was a mentor to me, uh, in you know my approach to uh leadership in the fire service, and I always recognize with him how, in tune to the personnel, he was, you know, right, wrong, or indifferent, or whether this guy or that guy had a issue with him or whatever he always seemed to be doing, you know, or moving in a direction of the right thing and what was best for the department.
Erron Kinney: 20:46
But he also could hold stuff tight. So if you needed to be vulnerable, you could be vulnerable with him. And I think having officers like that, like you know, how could John Lepiccolo having a senior guy in the firehouse with me, like Josh North, you know, you know working with those kind of guys, you know In my fire service career, you know they they were a trusting it was, it was, it was that family atmosphere, that kind of got you through some tough times. And I think you know, for me also is I had to let go of like the macho facade and I had to, I had to get, I had to seek, you know, I had to reach out and get some therapy. Man, like you know, um, and I I did that, um, initially kind of reluctantly and then, as I, as I was involved in pursue that and saw the benefits, you know, and experienced the benefits of that, I was like man, why wasn't I doing this years ago?
Carol Park: 21:54
Yeah, you know you speak so much wisdom in your words today I just think, like with the team part and having someone that's, you know, older, wiser, that has your back, that sees you in that moment of vulnerability where you're just getting reamed in the weight room, in the locker room, in front of the team and you're like the emotions. I think people don't realize that vulnerability, the emotional exposure piece, feels so vulnerable Like whoa, I've been seen and oh, again in these macho like oh, I've got to be strong, I've got to suck it down, but somebody to say, hey, seize you, encourage you, which I know you've brought into your own leadership style. As you said, it was having these mentors, if you will, teaching you. And then the element you're talking about of trust, you know, and what builds trust. And you're right, we were not going to be vulnerable with everybody. We're going to be vulnerable with everybody. We're going to know where it's the safe environment, where it's okay.
Carol Park: 23:03
Because in that early with vulnerability, there can be those shame gremlins that come in and say, no, don't do this, don't do this. So if we don't have some shame resilience around that, it's even harder to show up and be seen. So so much your leadership, starting as a rookie, but then building with your team and then transitioning, because today you're a fire chief leading all sorts of people and groups, and officers like you're at the top, and so this leadership so what wisdom do you think as a fire chief around vulnerability and courage do you think is important for those who are first responders or firefighters? What do you think is the important message here?
Erron Kinney: 23:55
I think the important message is you know I think it's a couple actually, I think as leaders of departments, or a department head or leader of the fire department, you want to do everything you can to foster an environment that is safe and trusting and that provides your personnel with the opportunity to be vulnerable with someone. It's not necessarily, and I think it's unrealistic to expect that. You know the chief is supposed to carry that weight on his own, but as an environment and as a culture within your department, you want there to be. You know a way for your personnel to be vulnerable, a way for them, you know, to share and to be able to express themselves when they face those tough calls or when they make a mistake, or you know when life is just tough. I mean it could be unrelated to you know, the fire department, but the reality is, you know, in our service we do have really a second family. We spend as much time together on shift or in the firehouse as we do with our families. So you have to have people in the firehouse and create an environment in the firehouse that allows for that and doesn't frown upon that and that encourages it.
Erron Kinney: 25:11
You know, I think, like you had alluded to before. Sometimes you get this facade or this macho tough. You know you just got to grin and bear it kind of you know approach and attitude and you know I think that can be very dangerous. You know, because you can. You know at some point that's got to, that's got to go somewhere, it's got to come out somehow. You're so right.
Carol Park: 25:34
I always say it comes out sideways and backwards and a lot of times it's not pretty and it really can be dangerous. And so, finding the place to open up and have the safe places and you did touch on the emotional part, even when you were in the NFL and you had an outlet on the field like, oh, you could show some of that aggression and it was okay. But then realizing, okay, I got to figure out some of this so that it doesn't come out sideways and backwards and yeah, and then having the courage to move into that place and explore it a little bit. It does take a lot of courage, especially in places where againo supposed to have it all together. Yes, you know nothing's wrong. So, yeah, I hear you providing that, or trying to work to create that psychological safety for those who are in your department, which is so huge.
Erron Kinney: 26:33
Yes, and you know it is critically important. You know, I know for me. You know I have an open door policy. I expect my subordinate officers to also have an open door policy and I can't you know I can't micromanage them and force them to do things they're not comfortable with. But you know my deputy, you know who is one of my key people, that that you know we're able to bounce things off of each other and work together and lean on each other.
Erron Kinney: 27:02
You know we both have open door policies and you know sometimes our personnel, we have to be empathetic and we have to be compassionate. You know, and and be intentional about that, because you know I don't, I don't want the only time my people talk to me is when there's a problem, and also don't want them not to talk to me when there's a problem. So you know I try to. We both try to check up on our, our people. You know, if somebody calls out sick or they have a family issue, you know we check in. We try to check in and I try to be, as you know, as diplomatic as possible or allow as much leeway as possible If someone's facing a family crisis or an emergency or something like that, you know. You know I try to allow the leeway and the flexibility for them to. You know, leave when they need to leave, take time off when they need to take time off. Obviously there's parameters I have to stay within, but I try to put the individuals first because, at the end of the day, the success of this organization and the performance of my organization and how well we serve our community isn't dependent just on me. It's those people within my organization, the ones I'm responsible for, that really make this thing go and it really make this thing work. So it's important to me. You know that they feel safe and that they want to be here at work. They want to be in a comfortable, caring environment. You know where their needs are met and some of their wants are even provided for.
Erron Kinney: 28:37
And I think that you know in my, in my life, you know the successful organizations or successful teams. You know, even from an NFL point of view, the team and the atmosphere kind of changes, you know, cause the locker room changes over. But you know I can remember the best teams that I was on were very, very much so connected, in tune with each other and you could be vulnerable. There was. You know there was a sense of, of, of culture and trust, kind of globally, you know, and that's challenging to create. You know, um, that is something that I want to create within my organization. I think we have it in some levels, but I want it to permeate through all facets of my organization because I feel like it is important for people to have a space where they can be vulnerable.
Erron Kinney: 29:31
You know, and there's times where you are going to have to, you know, step up and be tough and go out and do the tough stuff, but there should be a place for you to come back and safely process that and talk about that, you know, and you don't have to be hard and gruff and tough, you can just be, you know. I think that's important and it took me a while to really embrace that fully. You know, and I like the way you use you. You use courage, um, because it does. I think it really does take courage. It takes more courage to be vulnerable than to stuff and to not open up Um, and I I think I've learned that over the years, and sometimes it was the hard way, because I know, growing up I was a stuffer Um, and you know that it was.
Erron Kinney: 30:20
It was. It wasn't easy to make that transition to. You know, go into therapy once a week, you know, um, you know, committing to it, being consistent with it, that took, you know, the same amount of energy and effort and discipline as doing the work to get on the field and doing the work to become a fire chief, like, but it's work that you know it's worth investing the time and energy because the fruit of that is you being healthier and whole as as a person and then able to do more and and bring more to the table for your organization or your team. So, um, you know, I think it's really important in you know, and in both of these professions there's definitely that, you know, facade of. You know well, you know it's almost inhuman if you really think about it right. Like you have to be so tough and hard that, like you expect this, these horrendous incidents you go to to not affect you, or you expect this. You know something you worked at so hard for so long to be a professional football player and you you mess up a play or you lose a game, like there's an emotional, humongous disappointment and let down there. Um, and that leads me to you.
Erron Kinney: 31:34
You asked about an experience I had.
Erron Kinney: 31:36
I remember, um, we played the k Kansas City Chiefs, the second game of our rookie year and it was really hot in Nashville. We ended up winning the game in overtime. I played a whole, whole lot of plays because the number two tight end on the depth chart had gotten injured in the first game and we played primarily two tight end sets. So I was in the game a lot, played a lot of plays and I was young so I still planned a ton of special teams and everything else. And I remember, after we won the game I just came in the locker room and everybody was, you know, excited. We won in overtime and the play before we scored I'd made a big block to, you know, for Eddie George to get yards, for us to be in position for field goal, and I just remember being a total and complete wreck. We won the game but I had been so focused and so locked in and so, like, just I was emotionally and psychologically and physically completely spent and I didn't know anything else to do and I couldn't, I just cried.
Carol Park: 32:45
I sat in front of my locker and cried and you know yeah, as you said it was part of your message before is you're more whole, you're more human. Just be like you could be you. And and again, your point to to being vulnerable with the safe people. You know that people who common humanity, they get it there, they're there. And so, yeah, well, gosh, Erron, thank you so much for your time today. I mean everything that you've said your courage just to be on, to share your story, to continue to lead in the way that you're leading, to allow people to feel safe, safe enough to be vulnerable, having the courage to be vulnerable and you providing that space. So grateful, always, so grateful for you as a first responder. We know that you continually put yourself, your life out there for others, which I can't think of a more courageous act and a vulnerable act. So again, thank you so much for your time, all your words of wisdom today.
Erron Kinney: 34:00
Yes, thank you for having me and I apologize for the little buzzes in the background. We got really busy here at the firehouse for some reason with a bunch of calls when I was trying to do this podcast, so I apologize.
Carol Park: 34:13
Oh, you're good. I don't think we'll really hear them, so it's all good. And again, thank you so much for your service to all of us, so thank you.
Erron Kinney: 34:25
Thank you.
We understand the challenges of attracting, retaining, and developing the right talent through effective company culture strategies. That’s why we built Commix.io, a Culture Engagement Platform (CEP) software that empowers leadership with the essential tools to identify gaps and strengthen organizational culture in a digital landscape.
Deploy data-informed engagement programs and culture initiatives twice as fast compared to traditional methods.
Reduce the 20+ hours spent on manual reporting and employee feedback analysis.
Strong company culture drives up to 4x better revenue growth. See the measurable impact.